How INCOMPAS Advocates for Broadband Policy That Promotes Competition - Episode 507 of the Community Broadband Bits Podcast

This week on the podcast, while attending the 2022 Broadband Communities Summit in Houston earlier this month, Christopher was joined by Angie Kronenberg, Chief Advocate and General Counsel for INCOMPAS, a leading trade association advocating on behalf of telecommunication policies that encourage competition. The pair kick-off the podcast with a fun nod to Angie’s involvement on a “speed dating” panel where the concept of “overbuilding” (industry-speak for competition) was a hot topic of discussion.

The two then delve into an overview of what INCOMPAS has been working on in light of the unprecedented amount of federal funds being funneled into states to expand high-speed Internet access – covering everything from managing conflict among its members who themselves are competitors to engaging state and local officials on ways to leverage federal and state grant funds to promote competition, particularly as it relates to open-access fiber networks.

Before the show’s end, Chris and Angie discuss a recent INCOMPAS campaign known as “Broadland” – a campaign aimed to influence Congress to fund the construction of fiber networks, which is fundamental even for wireless technology including 5G to work successfully. They even manage to talk about net neutrality as well as how “inmate phone justice” impacts crime rates.

This show is 30 minutes long and can be played on this page or via Apple Podcasts or the tool of your choice using this feed

Transcript below. 

We want your feedback and suggestions for the show-please e-mail us or leave a comment below.

Listen to other episodes here or view all episodes in our index. See other podcasts from the Institute for Local Self-Reliance here.

Thanks to Arne Huseby for the music. The song is Warm Duck Shuffle and is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution (3.0) license.


Angie Kronenberg (00:07):

We wanna be sure that our members have the opportunity, the opportunity to make it go with their business and to do well when they are doing well, we know their communities are doing well.

Christopher Mitchell (00:19):

Welcome to another episode of the Community Broadband Bits podcast, <laugh>. I'm Christopher Mitchell at the Institute for a Local Self-Reliance, normally in St. Paul, Minnesota, but today in Houston, Texas. Again, for the broadband communities in the Harrison Edwards Studios of the broadband communities. That's the, the folks in the background are other podcasts and stuff. I'm sitting here next to Angie Kronenberg, who is the Chief Advocate and general Counsel of INCOMPAS. Welcome to the show.

Angie Kronenberg (00:49):

Thank you so much, Chris. It's really been a pleasure to be in Houston with you for this fantastic conference at broadband communities.

Christopher Mitchell (00:56):

I'm excited that you still have some energy after what, like two hours of you, you had like a speed dating

Angie Kronenberg (01:02):

Panel. It was about two and a half hours and it was really intense, but it was a lot of fun because we covered things from the Affordable, affordable connectivity program. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> to overbuilding and what it means to really bring competition to consumers and small businesses, ensuring that they get access to high speed broadband networks, which by the way, everyone needs. Right. we needed to run our businesses, we needed it at home so we can school at home, do healthcare at home. I mean, so it's been a lot of fun talking to people, but to have that session, and thank you for joining that session with us Yes. To talk about quote over-building

Christopher Mitchell (01:37):

<laugh>. Right. It was a, it was a very good way to wrap, wrap that up. I thought, first of all, I thought that was great and the, and one of the reasons I just wanted to have you on was I hadn't seen you run a panel before. And it was terrific because I'm super critical of like, panels. I feel like a lot of times the moderators aren't like asking good enough questions or being, but it was, it was really terrific. And so thank

Angie Kronenberg (01:57):

You. I've been told I'm a high energy person that I can change the dynamics of a room just because of the way that I talk to people. My facial expressions, you've known me a long time. I am very expressive person. Yes. It was a lot of fun though, to have these experts on these various issues who could present the topics and then I could have interactions with right. And so it was just really being able to get down deep into the details and then we had an opportunity for the audience to ask questions. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> as well, that keeps the audiences engaged. And we're not stuck just hearing about what does Angie Kronenberg think and what questions do I have, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but also, what are the people who are actually building the networks, the local government officials and state government officials who are here, and how they're thinking about all of this federal funding that's coming. And as well, you know, how can they ensure that all of their communities are gonna get access to these new networks. So it was, it was a really energetic panel discussion that brought the audience in and kept them there. I mean, I was impressed at how many people stayed in that room for two and a half hours. Right?

Christopher Mitchell (02:59):

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you let off with Fletcher Kittredge, who's been on our show before, who's done. He's done great work. And he's been on multiple shows that we've hosted. they're doing great work in Maine. He's a member of INCOMPAS through GWI.

Angie Kronenberg (03:11):

Yes. And he has been for a while.

Christopher Mitchell (03:13):


Angie Kronenberg (03:14):

Oh yeah, that's really great question. So, INCOMPAS INCOMPASes the Internet and Competitive Networks Association. We're based in Washington dc This is our 41st service year for our members. What we do is we represent their interests in front of the US government. so we mostly focus on the federal government ensuring that there are policies in place that will promote and enable competitive choice in the marketplace. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and by that we mean competitive choice for a network as well as competitive choice for your online content companies. We have members who are builders. They are competing against others. They are building their own networks across the us. We've got some that are focused on Last Mile. We have others that are focused on Middle Mile, and we have others that are actually global providers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. We also represent the content companies who are offering services on those networks.


So think of the Googles of the world, the Netflixes of the world. So they're part of our membership as well. The one thing that we all have in common is that we all want good competitive communications policy in the US to ensure that consumers and businesses have choice no matter what it is that they're looking for. Are they looking for a video service? Are they looking for a voice service? Are they looking for some kind of a texting service? You know, they can get options. And what we think is, is that it's important for consumers to have options of their network providers as well as options for their online content. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that's what we do. we've been doing a lot of state and local work because of all this federal funding. So we've been trying to drive the right policy at the federal level. Right. But then we're also trying to drive the right policies at the state and local level too. We partner with our members to best represent their interests. We work with them and collaborate with them. So, I just got a question today from someone. How is it possible that you don't have a lot of conflicts in your membership? These, I work really hard to have the kinds of discussions around the table to collaborate with each other so that we can best represent everyone's interests in Washington, their state capitals, and way down at the local

Christopher Mitchell (05:17):

Level. Right. And that, that includes everything from the legislation on, on the Hill that people think immediately about. Yes. And your, your boss is Chip Pickering from Mississippi. A representative from Mississippi who who I think has a, has an iconic voice and is just well known in this area.

Angie Kronenberg (05:35):

He is. So Chip was a former member of Congress. prior to that he was a staffer in the Senate. He worked for Senator Trent Lott. He was one of the staffers on the 1996 Telecom Act. And just as it passed, he was running for congress, became a member of Congress. Then he was on the house committee that has the jurisdiction on communications. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. he was instrumental in ensuring that the competition piece of the Telecom Act of 1996 really was implemented in a way that brought as much competition as it possibly could into the marketplace. But as we all know, those, that was mostly focused on local telecom service that we thought of as voice service. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And as technologies change, we now need broadband to every person in the us We need to ensure that they have the capability to access that broadband.


Right. But that they also have the choice of broadband providers. And so a lot of what we do at INCOMPAS now is making sure that as we're looking at funding opportunities, that competitors have a shot at that funding and that the obligations of the, those who get funding, that they will allow for wholesale access of their networks. So we're not just funding Monopoly networks mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. But that they will be willing to provide opportunities for other providers to use their networks to connect and that they'll abide by obligations like open internet obligations and things so that folks can, can access the content mm-hmm. <affirmative> that they want online.

Christopher Mitchell (07:08):

And I wanna, I wanna come back to that in a second. It's gonna be a weird, but I also wanted to, to button this up. First of all Senator Tread Lott. Yes. Definitely focused on, on internet, on our Voice. But also, like, I remember I look back at the legislative history. Yeah. Cuz I was trying to get a sense of the whole municipal involvement. He was very excited about Municipal Electrics being able to get involved to provide broadband services. Absolutely. That was a big priority for

Angie Kronenberg (07:28):

Him. And there were restrictions in the law. You know, cable couldn't compete against voice. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, the telcos and telcos couldn't compete against cable on video. DBS was a new technology that was permitted under the 92 Cable Act. They were able to get access to the video programming that cable owned mm-hmm. <affirmative> in order to provide competi competition direct broadcast satellite service. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So think of Dish and Direct tv. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, those services wouldn't have succeeded, but for Congress setting some rules in place that allowed for competition. So they were anticipating that we would see additional services coming. And they called, they, at the time they called broadband Advanced Telecom services. Right, right. We all call it broadband now, but, so Congress was anticipating that they were setting the groundwork for more competition mm-hmm. <affirmative> and setting the groundwork for advanced technologies to come. So when people say, well, the 96 act, it's really old, you know, it's 20, what? 20? I can't do the math. 27 years old now. Right. 26 years old now and it's old. It's not really that useful. No. Yeah. It laid the foundation to where we are today.

Christopher Mitchell (08:36):

Right. And people like John Chambers. Right. I mean, people like I'm trying to remember the guy with the cowboy boots, like who worked for Senator Stevens I dunno if you can remember his name. <laugh>. I interviewed him like seven years ago. Yeah. And at that time, like, he made it very clear I feel like I'm, I'm gonna have to like look this up then. like they, they knew what they were doing and they had a specific vision. And of course like, there's always a challenge because like Congress can have a vision, but the, the executive branch and the courts will do what they're gonna do with it. So. Right.

Angie Kronenberg (09:04):

And the agencies have to implement the laws. Right. Ultimately. Right. And we do need expert agencies like the fcc mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like the N T I A. and now we have the states and localities so involved in this deployment mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there are a lot of different areas for us to be advocating and making sure people understand the history. Right. Right. As well as the intent and the opportunities to improve. I see this as an evolution, right. We we're constantly evolving. We need to make sure that we remember the intent and the purpose, but that we evolve to continue to improve and, and ensure that there's access, right. Access to network, access to competitors access to opportunity. We talk about competition in the US but it's also important to remember like with competition, we get better service. But it helps us compete internationally too. Because internationally, you know, they are building network, making sure that they have the new technology so that they've secured their future. We need to be doing the same thing in the us

Christopher Mitchell (10:08):

The guy in the cowboy boots <laugh> that I was referencing is Earl Comstock, who who is who is on back in, it was episode 89 in 2014, where we talked about some of this stuff back in the day. Yes. so so you do a lot of stuff on the Hill, but also your background. You worked at the fcc. I did. You have a real good sense of everything that's going on there. So, so this is something like you're involved in all of these different agencies making sure that, that we're getting the right policies that we need.

Angie Kronenberg (10:39):

Yeah. Just by way of my background a little bit, I had the honor to work for former FCC commissioner Mignon Clyburn at the very beginning of the Obama administration. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I, I spent four years working with her on staff representing the American people, ensuring that they had access to broadband as we knew it then, which was much slower and very different than what we think of today. universal service was a very important issue. We were reforming all the universal service programs so that we could begin to fund broadband networks and broadband service. She was chair of the three joint boards that the FCC has with state commissioners. So I got to work directly with state commissioners on these issues. It really was a foundational experience for me mm-hmm. <affirmative> and helped me tremendously to move from the role of being the lawyer's lawyer, which I was in private practice at a law firm, to really thinking, putting on the hat of being a policymaker and how to think about these issues as a policymaker.


and from the consumer perspective, I mean, she's known as being the commissioner on behalf of consumers and that was a fantastic experience working with her. I've had the pleasure recently she's been working with us on one of our campaigns that INCOMPAS called broadland and Broadland. We started up to help support the funding that was coming from the American Rescue Plan as well as the infrastructure bill. Really trying to convince Congress that we needed to be funding fiber as far as possible. Because fiber too is the foundation for so many of the technologies. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> including 5g, ultimately 6g, we're gonna need a lot, a lot of fiber in the us Other countries have set fiber goals as well as gigabit speed goals. Right. And we were concerned, you know, that if we as the us, if we're gonna spend these billions of dollars and we don't put the thumb on the scale on fiber, we're gonna regret it.


And so we started at Broadland working with our member companies, chip Pickering, my boss and former FCC commissioner Mignon Clyburn, our co spokespeople for the campaign. So we sent them out and about to go talk to people as well as to just bring to light the important stories of what our member companies are doing. They're bringing fiber to communities that have been left behind that no one had been building fiber to. It's really exciting, you know, when they go and they partner with the local communities to build that fiber and bring access, it now ensures that school children there can have access to any information around the world. Right. And that during the pandemic, especially that they could school from home during those times that we were trying contain, you know, a, a virus that could really cause a lot of harm in the community.

Christopher Mitchell (13:27):

Well, and there's even weird indirect benefits. Like one of the things we see when that happens is that the incumbent provider that maybe had, maybe was neglecting that community will suddenly start investing more. And they might be Oh, absolutely. And then they might also be like sponsoring little league teams and trying to figure out how to improve their image. So they're actually giving more into the community too. And there's like really weird indirect benefits to the community that come from that competition.

Angie Kronenberg (13:49):

Yes. So true.

Christopher Mitchell (13:52):

funny story about Menon Clyburn. Were you there in Minneapolis? There was like a grassroots meeting toward the beginning. She was, she wasn't on the commission for very long.

Angie Kronenberg (14:00):

I was there.

Christopher Mitchell (14:01):

<laugh> I think we met you. Were you there when, when she met Al Franken in the green room? Yes. Because I, I just remember him, like, I felt like he was stumbling over like three different jokes he was trying to make about her name at the time. <laugh>, because he was, he was a senator from Minnesota. He was new, relatively new at that point too. Yes. And yeah. And I was there, I spoke for a little bit on that, that panel. And it was wonderful that the commissioners came out to to hear from this community event in, in Minneapolis.

Angie Kronenberg (14:25):

Anytime we traveled, we would meet with the community that was first and foremost in her mind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and so many commissioners do that when they travel. They want to hear directly from the people. And then we would try to pack in as much content as possible. So I worked with her on broadband and wireline and universal service issues. But there were times that I would have to cover other things like she would be doing with other of her advisors, like on media issues. in that particular trip, what really sticks out in my mind is not only meeting with the community, but it was the beginning of the net neutrality debates and exactly what the FCC would do on net neutrality. It was just before we voted the order on net neutrality that actually set rules for the first time now that those ended up getting overturned and the FCC ended up having to do 'em all over again during the Wheeler administration, however, and

Christopher Mitchell (15:17):

They kept getting stricter and stricter. The industry should have just settled for what they had. <laugh>.

Angie Kronenberg (15:22):

Yes. Comcast and Verizon have challenge at times. The orders that have come out of the fcc and you're absolutely right. They just get stricter as they come. And I think we'll see net neutrality again, be a discussion. Right. But it's, it was, it's important for policy makers at all levels. Right. To really get into the community, talk to them. It's the community peace where you're hearing from your constituents, it's the boots on the ground. Like they know what the challenges are. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think it's hard to appreciate it in Washington. We have other challenges. Right. But, but to, to really be able to talk to them, to listen to them, to take those ideas as well as seeing what concepts have worked and then bring that up, shine a light on it so other communities are aware of it as well. And then how can we inject those ideas into the federal policy mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that we can do a better job across the nation. Right. It was really such a unique experience. I say as much I do love my job now, but working for a commissioner of the FCC is by far, you know, the best experience of my career. And Mignon is incredible

Christopher Mitchell (16:35):

And I want to, we'll get back to INCOMPAS one second, but the last thing I just, I feel like I can't ever talk about Mignon without recognizing that she picked up the prison phone justice issue and no one else would. Right. It's because when you're an FCC commissioner, you have 10 things you want to do. Realistically, you can focus on three and maybe win on two, I'm guessing. Like Yeah. And like to, to make prison phone justice such a big issue was just a, such a, a sign from her that like, that she viewed it as important when like other commissioners I'm sure agreed with her, but they're like, I'm gonna spend my time on this other thing that's more likely to succeed or this. But like, the fact that she made that such a, for people who aren't aware, like this is a totally horrible system that just results in higher crime rates and it's just, there's no good outcomes that, except for a few people get rich on it. So I just, I always commend her for that.

Angie Kronenberg (17:23):

Well, thank you. she deserves a lot of credits and when she was a state commissioner in South Carolina, they reformed the in-state rates for prisoners and it's really the families who are paying these rates. And she saw it from that perspective and the good that came about as a result of those reforms. So she knew if we could do it for the interstate rates that consumers have to pay in order to stay in touch with their loved ones, that it could really make a difference for them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And it was a real honor to work with her on that issue. And it, you know, this is about keeping families together. So it's broadband, right. Like this is really about this basic communication ability for people to stay in touch with each other mm-hmm. <affirmative> no matter the circumstance. And we need to recognize that incarcerated individuals, oftentimes with the breadwinners of their families mm-hmm. <affirmative> but also that they need that family connection. It will help them reform. Right. She recognized that and so it was a real pleasure to work with her on that issue and to make a difference in people's lives. I mean, that is a real difference that we made in people's lives.

Christopher Mitchell (18:31):

Yes. And there's a, there's so much more that I would, I I could spend a while talking about that cuz I feel so strongly about that as well. Just the fact that it's counterproductive as well as cruel like <laugh> is is two separate things. But, but the one of the things that you mentioned on the panel gets back to what you were starting to say about the wholesale requirements for the new networks that are being built. Yes. And so I wanna touch on that because you mentioned the post office. So can you walk us through why the post office is relevant for this discussion?

Angie Kronenberg (18:59):

Oh, sure. So this discussion that we were having about over-building the question had come up like, what can we do to ensure that those who are being funded aren't just providing a monopoly service and aren't really, you know, meeting all the needs of, of everyone in the community. So one of the things that we have suggested is that follow the 96 ACT model. And that is require that the funding is tied to these obligations that they provide service as a wholesale matter to other ISPs. So today we represent a number of providers in the marketplace who deliver service to customers who have multi-locations throughout the US And one of our member companies, granite Telecommunications, that's based in the Boston area, provides service to every single US post office across the nation. And the beauty of it is, is that they are one service provider. So the US Post office only has to call Granite to get their service and to be able to, you know, deal with any particular issue that comes up with their service.


So as the US post offices get served now with broadband access through potentially this funding that's coming, we wanna be sure that Granite can continue to be their service provider and be able to offer service to all of them across the us. So as those post offices get the upgrades and they go from, you know, dial up to now broadband access, we wanna be sure that Granite can still be their service provider. so what they do is they aggregate, you know, they deal with every single ISP across the nation to make sure that they can provide the service that's available. And in some instances, granite's able to, to build and provide the connection themself. But in many of these instances, it doesn't make a lot of business sense for there to be a number of builders. Right. It only makes business sense for there to be one, but they should provide wholesale access. Some folks say, well, you know, we don't really wanna regulate rates. Well this isn't regulating rates. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this is, you're gonna make available wholesale what you already make available at a retail level. And this is stuff that the states are very familiar with because it was in the 96 acts. Pretty simple to to abide by. So we don't think it's really difficult in on the enforcement issue. The

Christopher Mitchell (21:12):

Big companies do this already. Right. Yeah. So like, like let's say that I don't know how, how the, I I'm sure you probably have noticed some specific examples but also make one up. Right. <laugh> at and t has a contract with like Marriott or something like that, right? Yeah. And like there's a bunch of cities where at and t doesn't have a lot of fiber. They probably have a deal with another like tier one telco Yep. In which they just, they get it. Right. And so like they get they do this regularly. Yes. Cuz they have these national contracts.

Angie Kronenberg (21:37):

Yes, absolutely. So it's something that all the carriers are very familiar with. This won't be hard to implement and it just ensures that there's a level of competition and that we're not just funding monopoly networks.

Christopher Mitchell (21:50):

Right. so as we're wrapping up, we've already taken more time than I than I thought, just cuz it's wonderful talking to you. Likewise. the Fletcher Kittridge joined and you have a story about like how he came to join.

Angie Kronenberg (22:03):

Thank you for coming back to that. so Fletcher joined about five years ago. So we, we had a bit of a challenge. Another trade association that represents the incumbents who I shall not name, had filed a petition at the FCC looking for the opportunity to deregulate what we called unbundled network elements. so at the time we had an, sorry,

Christopher Mitchell (22:24):

This, this is bds right. Also like

Angie Kronenberg (22:26):

Yeah. It was, it was like kind of the leftover issue mm-hmm. <affirmative> as a result of bds, which is business data services. Some people think of them as special access services have been deregulated at the beginning of the Trump administration mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so there was a follow on petition to say, well we should essentially do the same thing for unbundled network elements, which was part of the 1996 telecom act.

Christopher Mitchell (22:47):

And that's what allows like Dane, Jasper and Fletcher and others Exactly. To use their equipment to use incumbent copper lines to deliver services to Exactly Lots of people.

Angie Kronenberg (22:56):

We already had member companies and you just mentioned Sonic Dane Jasper, who uses unis to build his customer base up and then he builds fiber to them. We began to work on this issue and a number of of companies didn't have any representation in the docket. And so Fletcher KUT was one of them. Gwi came to us and said, Hey, we see you're working on this. We wanna work with you a number of other companies as well. there were different unbundled network elements that were impacted. but we were able to bring this coalition together and say to the fcc like, look, we have all these network changes and all these technologies that are coming on board and we need more time to make sure everybody has time to build to their customers. So we were able, and we, and it was, it turned out the proceeding.


Well at times, you know, you see a petition and you think, oh, this is gonna be difficult to work on. And it was at times. But we were able to negotiate an arrangement with the other trade association and its member companies to allow some additional time so folks could begin to transition off of the incumbent telcos, unis and, and give them time to build and transition their customers. Now in some situations, you know, there isn't, there hasn't been enough of an economic case for them to build their own network, perhaps with some of this funding there, there will be an economic case. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. so some of it has been transitioning customers back to the incumbent telco as they've not been able to Yes. Make other kinds of wholesale arrangements that are not regulator rates. but it did help us build up our membership and bring on these new companies.


And Fletcher Kittredge at GWI is one of them. And as you've heard, Fletcher has, his company has been building fiber throughout the Northeast and they've taken funding in some situations and they're looking at funding opportunities now through these, these new programs that are coming on board. And then we have other member companies that are more, what I would describe as Middle Mile fiber companies who I think even if they aren't looking at the funding directly mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they will be working with those who are getting the funding to help them build. Cuz many of them, that's what they do. They're builders. So they'll be building fiber.

Christopher Mitchell (25:06):

One of the, the last things I'll say is that one of the things Fletcher just mentioned in his comments is something I think other ISPs might be interested in, which is having calls with, with other ISPs that are members to talk about the supply chain. Yes. And to get a sense of that, cuz like, I mean that's one of the things that when I talk to some folks, they're like, like what are people saying there about the supply chain? You know, what's going on?

Angie Kronenberg (25:25):

And we host a weekly call with our members where we're telling them, here's what's going on, here's what we're doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, you expect to see a draft from us on X, Y, and Z, but it gives them a chance to talk to each other mm-hmm. <affirmative> and about what they're thinking. And in fact, Fletcher, you know, he regularly attends those calls and even if they don't wanna say a lot of things with everybody on, you know, it connects them with other people. And I know offline they have one-on-one conversations and Compass also has a trade show that we put on in the fall. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, our trade shows coming up in October in Denver at the Sheraton. I think the dates, check me on this are the 23rd through the 25th. so encourage those who are listening to take a look at our website about information about that. We just hosted our policy summit in early February in person in Washington. We always have it winter into Spring in Washington. So look for that next year. We also have webinars. Those are free. So take a look at our website and you can see the content that we run. If you're an ISP and you don't have someone that's representing you in Washington and at the States and, and the local communities, feel free to reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you.

Christopher Mitchell (26:38):

<laugh>, you could still be a member, I'm guessing even if you're a member of the, the American Cable Association

Angie Kronenberg (26:43):

Or something like that. Oh, absolutely. No. And we have several members that are members of several mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So, you know, Sonic, for instance, has been a member of Fiber Broadband and Association and INCOMPAS at the same time I think associations do different things for their member companies mm-hmm. <affirmative>, so you may get one thing outta one association, but something very unique out of INCOMPAS. And what I have been told INCOMPAS does very well, is we have a lot of information about what is going on. We actually represent our member company's interests before the government agencies and we've really made a difference on the policy outcomes for our members. We wanna be sure that our members have the opportunity, the opportunity to make a go at their business and to do well when they are doing well, we know their communities are doing well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right. So that's, that's where it's been so great working with you, Chris, is because I think we're really aligned on trying to improve the local ex, the local communities and that they have good local experience.

Christopher Mitchell (27:39):

Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Angie. It's been wonderful. Yeah. I feel like this is, this is long overdue, but it's really great to do it in person too.

Angie Kronenberg (27:45):

It's so great to do it in person and you just asked me like, Hey, can we get together and I'll do a quick podcast. And I, at first I was like, deer in the headlights and then I was like, well of course I'll do that. So thank you so much. I really do appreciate it.

Christopher Mitchell (27:56):


Ry (27:57):

We have transcripts for this and other podcasts slash broadband bits. Email with your ideas for the show. Follow Chris on Twitter, his handles at Community Nets, follow muni Stories on Twitter that handles muni networks. Subscribe to this and other podcasts from I lsr, including Building Local Power Local Energy Rules, and the Composting for Community Podcast. You can access them anywhere you get your podcasts. You can catch the latest important research from all of our initiatives if you subscribe to our monthly While you're there, please take a moment to donate your support in any amount. Keeps us going. Thank you to Arne Hughes B for the song, warm Duck Shuffle, licensed through Creative Commons. This was the Community Broadband Bits podcast. Thanks for listening.