A Foundation for the Future of Digital Equity Work - Episode 520 of the Community Broadband Bits Podcast

Davida Delmar (00:07):

Tribes are sovereign entities, you know, so they're not necessarily stakeholders, they're rights holders, so they have a right in terms of how their land is managed. And a and a part of that, of course, is the resources, which of one being broadband.

Christopher Mitchell (00:20):

Welcome to another episode of the Community Broadband Bids podcast. This is Christopher Mitchell at the Institute for Local Self-Reliance in St. Paul, coming to you from the National Tribal Telecommunications Summit in Gila River. And I'm here now with two folks that I've had a just wonderful chance to work with multiple times in the past with an organization that that I love that you know, usually we have Angela Sifer on to talk about the National Digital Inclusion Alliance, but today we have two other representatives who I'm very excited to get on the mic. We have Pamela Rosales, the Training and Community Engagement Manager at N D I A.

Pamela Rosales (01:05):

Hi, Chris <laugh>. Yeah, I, I do have quite a long title, so a training and community engagement specialist, but, or manager. See, I even butchered it myself. but yeah, Pella, she, hers. And I am based out in Chicago.

Christopher Mitchell (01:17):

People say that I'm always curious, are you really in Chicago? Yes.

Pamela Rosales (01:20):

Okay. I'm in Logan

Christopher Mitchell (01:21):

Square. You're not in Naperville?

Pamela Rosales (01:22):

No, no, I'm not in Naperville. Not in Aurora. No, I'm in Chicago. Chicago, Logan Square, for those who know

Christopher Mitchell (01:28):

<laugh>. Okay. One of the least populated counties in, in Minnesota is Cook County. And so every now and then I see something about Cook County, and I'm like, what? <laugh>? Yeah. Oh, Chicago. Okay.

Pamela Rosales (01:36):

<laugh>.

Christopher Mitchell (01:38):

we also have with us Davida Delmar, who is the Digital inclusion manager at Amerind, but works very tightly with National Digital Inclusion Alliance.

Davida Delmar (01:47):

Yes, exactly. I think 85% of my job is with N D I A. And that's a good 85% <laugh>. I love N D I A. They have so many cool resources to to help with folks in general in terms of navigating digital equity, inclusion, all that good stuff.

Christopher Mitchell (02:02):

And you work with superstar Abby. you are co superstars at our tribal broadband bootcamps to bring digital equity training to those events.

Davida Delmar (02:11):

Yes. Abby's the best friend. She's my, I guess we're best friends in <laugh> in a professional sense. we love traveling together and sharing different things as well as discussing how digital inclusion is adaptable to tribal communities. And it's great because I don't know, she brings her knowledge from, you know, working in North Carolina and which is of course, non-native. but then I also bring, you know, my insight into how tribal communities work and what's important in terms of navigating that process of partnering with tribes.

Christopher Mitchell (02:43):

How is digital equity different across tribes, across rural, across urban? Is it largely similar or are there significant differences in terms of what people have to keep in mind if they're working on digital equity with different communities?

Davida Delmar (02:57):

N D I A has been great in terms of noting that they are similar in three key areas, which of course is affordable broadband appropriate devices as well as digital skills training or literacy. so I think those core elements are important in all those different areas. how they differentiate in terms of geography or access and things like that plays a pivotal role in all of these, because of course urban has the advantage of having resources near, near them or accessible to them or coming to them because they are of course a major municipality. But then of course, there's pockets of neighborhoods and things like that who unfortunately are part of this digital redlining discrimination where they, you know, because they are low income or live on the wrong side of tracks, what, whatever that means they're not able to access.

(03:51):

Whereas rural, of course, they have mountains and streams and, you know natural scenic areas, landscapes that might prohibit them from, you know, the cables coming to them or from having an a wireless signal, things of that sort of course. And of course, tribes, since they are predominantly rural they kind of have that similarity between rural and tribal where they're in a sense, in the same geographic area. And then of course, it gets really complicated because tribes tribal land can be checkerboarded, so of course their neighbor could be on non-tribal land, but then you could be on tribal land. and so with the wireless network, why is my per or why is my neighbor getting connectivity and I'm not, even though we are maybe like a mile away, you know, kind of thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. so I think, you know, there's similar similarities, but then of course there's there's a, there's the matter of jurisdiction, and I think that's kind of the core of what I'm talking about between tribal and rural.

Christopher Mitchell (04:52):

Yeah. And, and Pila, anything that jumps into your mind about

Pamela Rosales (04:55):

It having done trainings with at St. Louis with the extension team there and deet hearing about the, the specific issues and barriers that rural towns are facing that are very much different than urban cities. So the main issue there is of course not having that broadband, that's a, that's a big key difference there. As well as in urban cities, yeah, you have more resources that are available. especially if you are in like if you're part of a minority group or have like that type of identity in, in urban cities, you have more of a chance of having a multilingual advocate that speaks your language. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> do those trainings. You have more of a community in that way. So a digital navigator might have that cultural competency with you versus if you are kind of more of in the minority population and living in a rural community. so things like that is the, the key barriers or key differences.

Christopher Mitchell (05:52):

It, it seems like a lot of digital navigator work and digital equity work takes place face to face. And, and that's gotta be a challenge right there in more rural areas is just trying to get people together. Right.

Pamela Rosales (06:04):

Having it, it's, it's a much better situation to have it in person versus doing it remotely mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which that is possible. but of course, with connectivity issues and it not being the, a connection not being reliable people often prefer to have things in person because then you get to answer those questions. Or the digital navigator gets to see the body language of that community member if they truly understand it or not. that hesitancy that you can't really capture over the phone or on Zoom.

Christopher Mitchell (06:32):

Now, I'm curious, what, what are things that are happening right now in the digital equity space? Because I, I feel like, you know, people are really focused on big dollars moving in all kinds of ways deadlines. And at the same time, you know, it isn't that long ago that Salt Lake City was like one of the first digital navigators, right? And like, doing this report about what worked and what didn't. I feel like we're seeing digital navigators pop up in a lot of places, but like, what are some of the latest things that are happening in the digital equity space?

Pamela Rosales (07:01):

There's a lot of conversations, especially within our listserv, about how do we properly outreach? You know, how do we do that effective marketing and having these events so that we're actually connecting to the community members who need these services the most. I think that's where a lot of people are focusing on right now. especially with the ACP outreach grants that came out.

Christopher Mitchell (07:23):

And if I could just pause there for a second, you said came out, I think they're just authorized, right?

Pamela Rosales (07:27):

Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah. The, the NOFO hasn't released, but in terms of it just being like

Christopher Mitchell (07:31):

Announced something that's on the horizon.

Pamela Rosales (07:33):

Exactly. So now it's how do we prepare for that and how do we outreach efficiently and effectively? other things that we are hearing from our community is the, the digital navigator program of what is working, what isn't working? Do we have resources out there that are in different languages? how do you, you know, overcome these type of barriers? and then also just because of the fact that there's so much funding that's coming in, there's a lot of people who are just reaching out because they just found out about N D I A or just found out about digital equity, right? Or they just started a job and they don't have any idea, which I can fully relate, cuz that was kind of me coming fully, fully new into this situation. But thankfully, you know, coming with N D I A, I don't, I have all of these resources. So a lot of it too is just people starting at these new jobs and places of where do I start?

Christopher Mitchell (08:29):

And I feel like I, it is a good point to ask should people have something on their calendar for next year? Something where I might might be able to meet a lot of inspiring people and

Pamela Rosales (08:38):

Yeah. Something happening in San Antonio? Oh,

Christopher Mitchell (08:41):

Yes. The Riverwalk. Yes. <laugh>.

Pamela Rosales (08:44):

Yes. So N D I A we, our National Conference net Inclusion, it's happening at the end of February. I believe it's February 28th through March 3rd. It's gonna be in San Antonio, and it's going to be great. We're going to have a lot of panels and workshops from experts all over the country to share what, like, in terms of policy, digital navigators digital skills. I'll be doing another welcome to digital Inclusion 1 0 1, you know, for all the newbies out there. so it's kind of, kind of covering all different levels of knowledge when it comes to digital equity. So we have that the first week of October is actually digital inclusion week. So there's a lot of stuff happening very soon throughout the country there. We've actually surpassed our goal of registering over 102 events, so that's really exciting. essentially digital inclusion week is where we have organizations throughout the country doing digital inclusion events.

Christopher Mitchell (09:41):

That's excellent. One of the big announcements that came out recently is about the the digital navigators that are going to tribes. I, I think that's just part of a larger effort. Right. but let's, let's start, talk first about the tribes. we have in, in part because of a Google grant that I think we've talked about on past shows we have the N D I A has this really wonderful capacity for a multi-year program to help see digital navigators around the country. So what's happening in Indian country first?

Davida Delmar (10:12):

so we're so excited about it because we have a lot of tribes who were excited about this opportunity had already been doing this this type of work for years. And then of course, now of course have the funding to hire someone, which I think in tri in tribal communities a lot of things that prohibit them from, you know, having quality service and things like that is the fact that they can't hire anybody. And we heard that a lot from tribal ISPs. And of course what the trend we see is that, you know, libraries and other community incurring institutions aren't the ones who are doing digital nav navigation. It's actually tribal ISPs because they're the ones who are installing broadband into homes. And when the internet is down, of course, who do you call? You call the person who installed it, which is probably your local community member. And so the the tribes who were awarded we're so excited to have them as, as the Alaska Federation of Natives in Alaska. So we're so excited to have them out there. Kaius native solutions in Oregon who's owned by the Umatilla Tribe and Hela River Broadcast Corporation, which is Digital Connect here in Arizona who's actually hosting the broadband summit that we're at the Hoopa Valley Public Utilities District in California. Yay.

Christopher Mitchell (11:28):

Woo <laugh>, Hoopa Valley is our favorite <laugh>.

Davida Delmar (11:32):

And then Lumi Indian Business Council in Washington, which I'm so excited about. I've worked with them in the past and they're just awesome. Pueblo of Hames in New Mexico which is great Cherokee Nation. and it's so great because all of them are here and I was able to meet with a lot of them. Actually, not all of them are here, but most of them are here, which is awesome. So we're already creating that network. but we also have tribal serving folks. So these are people who are interested in partnering with tribes making that connection and partnership. Those folks are Forest County Broadband in Wisconsin the National Digital Equity Center in Maine and the Washington State University in Washington. So all excited about all of them because of course, what we're talking about in terms of digital equity and bead funding and things like that, we see a push from states to partner with tribal nations and they're, you know, they're ahead of the game in a sense, these tribal tribal serving grantees that we picked.

Christopher Mitchell (12:30):

And I feel like it's particularly exciting because originally I think there was a aim to have four, am I remembering that correctly? And then you ended up having more?

Davida Delmar (12:38):

Yes, exactly. Actually the goal was six. Okay. and then they hired me and I did such a good job. <laugh> No no. We just saw a lot of people interested in it, telling their friends, you know, you know, Indian country small, so of course we got a lot of people who are interested in applied and hopefully those folks who, you know, didn't get selected. Hopefully there, maybe there's other ways they can find funding to bring a digital navigator to their community.

Christopher Mitchell (13:05):

Yes. I I would imagine that one of the things that we hope to see is with the Digital Equity Act money available, that we'll see others that might be the state's using this money in similar ways, potentially. And then I'm sure that you would welcome them into the, the network to share strategies and things like that.

Pamela Rosales (13:23):

N D I A, we have a community job board and I help manage it. So I approve and we are seeing a lot of digital navigator positions come in that aren't from these 18 guarantees. So exactly what you're talking about. It's a thing. It is a thing. It is manifesting, those applications are coming out. People are looking to hire a digital navigator and hopefully, you know, use our model.

Christopher Mitchell (13:46):

So Pamela, let, let's talk about your email. Is there something you've received in the, in recent, like days or weeks where you were just kind of like, oh, wow, that's, that's really cool. I'm, I'm excited about that happening. <laugh> because usually I get in my email and I'm just like, oh, that's cool, but I don't have time to deal with it. I'm just so tired.

Pamela Rosales (14:04):

<laugh> and d a, we're actually working on providing workshops like in person to states with the Federal Reserve Bank like

Christopher Mitchell (14:12):

Massachusetts. Yes. Where you have a really good partner, Deanne <laugh>. Yeah.

Pamela Rosales (14:16):

Yes. And also we did one last week, I believe, or the week before at, in North Carolina. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. and I will be going to the one in New York, so I've kind of been focused on that.

Christopher Mitchell (14:28):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what happens there?

Pamela Rosales (14:30):

So we are actually working on coming out with a state toolkit to help states, you know, figure out what to do with this money. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not that we're telling states what to do, but what are those best practices. and then also helping them with the resources that are out there. the tools that we have with N D I A, like asset mapping, things like that. and then I will be there to do a digital inclusion 1 0 1 and that, that's part of all of the training. So it's just kind of getting those folks antiquated with what digital equity is and the resources that are available for them so that they know how to use this money wisely. Cuz this is the, this is, this, is it

Christopher Mitchell (15:09):

The people who are coming in to do this work on digital equity, I'm wondering where are they coming from? Right. Because like on, when I look at infrastructure side, it's like there's thousands of people working for ISPs or telecom, you know, like there's a whole industry of people that have been doing broadband work and we need a lot more, and we don't have as many in policy, but there's still like a lot of people who have been working in an industry, right. Digital equity is like, I feel like we've seen a lot of people from LI libraries and, you know, peop groups that were doing this work like, like non-profit groups locally. But is there other, other places where we see people like moving into this industry?

Pamela Rosales (15:44):

So yes. Yes. To libraries, yes. To social service work social services, nonprofits because they're the ones that are working with those clients. helping them with those federal, getting those federal programs and those benefits. and that's kind of how I came into this work because there's actually a name for what my clients were experiencing. And so I kind of am able to come to it with that lens. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, those are like the main ones that I think about.

Christopher Mitchell (16:13):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what about an Indian country? I mean, do we see sort of similar people coming out of those other spaces or you know, where are people coming from to do this work, do you think?

Davida Delmar (16:22):

Yes. Tribal ISPs. we see interest in libraries but then tribal libraries can be maybe under staff already, already, you know, or have priorities in other areas or may not be central to like the community or what ha whatever it may be. but I even we're hearing from different communities, of course every community is different, but from one community I heard that they got into broadband through the missing, murdered indigenous women initiative in terms of creating more safety in their community. And what they found was, this was pre pandemic. They wanted to increase their cell phone towers, you know to increase connectivity so that people can actually make phone calls. So that was what was

Christopher Mitchell (17:08):

Like emergency phone calls? Yeah,

Davida Delmar (17:10):

Exactly. Or even just, you know, exactly. So that they can stay, stay connected cuz they kept on losing signal. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. but then of course the pandemic hit and they realized it's not just, you know, their cell phone, it's the internet too. And it all played into impacting, you know, the rates of folks who were going missing or who maybe were lost or whoever it might be. And so that key part of safety is like what brought them into broadband, which I thought was, you know, a really cool perspective in terms of how we approach it from different areas, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. but then of course other things are happening in terms of like folks from the elder centers are probably the low hanging fruit in a lot of tribal communities. Cuz not only are they wanting to stay connected within like through their devices and through different community members and things like that, but also elders are usually in a, in a leadership position cuz they can impact the way decisions are made at the tribal council level and how it's affecting their community.

(18:12):

So what do they need? They need connectivity and of course they're getting those skills at their elder center, but also asking, you know, why aren't we staying connected to folks on the reservation and those who live off the reservation? Cuz of course I think like 75, 70% of, of tribal members live offers, you know, in major cities and things like that. So they have connectivity, but are they connecting back to tribal lands? so those are probably like the two key things that I've kind of heard recently where I'm kind of not necessarily surprised, but just like I, I see them having more of a voice in terms of like, why are we doing this work? Right? Why do we need connectivity and why is broadband important? I

Pamela Rosales (18:51):

Want to erase what I said earlier. Okay. Or maybe add onto it now that I've thought about it more of like, where are these people coming from mm-hmm. <affirmative> that, that are coming into digital inclusion work. yes. To those who are from libraries. So librarians, we usually think about those folks, but also because digital inclusion work, it's in every work you have people coming from universities, especially with extension offices. So most of the time, from what what I'm hearing is that they came into this work because they were essentially doing, providing a service and they didn't realize how important connectivity was, how important digital equity was. And that seeing that their, seeing that their clients were suffering because they didn't have the, the digital inclusion aspect to getting those services is what gets them into digital equity work. So we see people in healthcare coming into digital equity work universities, social services like elder services or even housing authorities,

Christopher Mitchell (19:53):

Child services,

Pamela Rosales (19:53):

Child services, domestic violence services and then libraries, like I said, and then also folks who have worked in local government as well.

Christopher Mitchell (20:03):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that makes sense. So I feel like there's a real optimism, right? I mean, I feel like people are enthusiastic, people worked hard. I mean, people like me that are grouchy, we can complain about like problems with the bills or the laws or the policies or the way they're enacted or whatever. But like I, I feel like people are pretty enthusiastic. They feel like we have some good tools where you can out there and get out there and do some good work. That's, is that what you're seeing?

Pamela Rosales (20:27):

Yeah, I think especially with the new folks that stumble into N D I A and they kind of feel like they hit a jackpot, you know, a gold mine of like, wow, this is everything that I've been looking for. There's a community out here with other folks who are at the same position as me and other folks in my community that are doing this work for a lot longer that I can connect with. So there is a lot of optimism, but also a lot of confusion as well because with everything is changing and there's so much money coming in technology is always ever changing. and, and now finally coming into realizing like, well, we don't know our community as well as we do. And so there is this big optimism, but then it's also faced with like, okay, well now we have the money.

(21:09):

We, there's no more excuse. Like we have to get into those communities. We have to learn what their needs are. We can't just speak for them and assume we know what their needs are. as somebody who is an immigrant is an Asian person, southeast Asian and, and also a Muslim hijabi woman, oftentimes, you know, policy makers and those who are sitting in the decision room don't come out to my communities and they're making those decisions that impact my community. And I think that's kind of where people are coming at right now in the digital, digital equity space of like, okay, great, here we are where we've got the resources, but oh no, we haven't made the, the, that connection, we haven't built that trust in those communities, so how are they gonna trust us? And sometimes that's like the, the biggest barrier or the biggest

Christopher Mitchell (21:56):

Hurdle that you saying that I we see this a little bit in Indian country, I feel like where tribes are busy they have a lot of things going on and in some people are like, I really want to like get involved and help out and they don't get their calls returned or something like that. And I feel like then like they might suggest that, that the people, you know, whether it's in a tribe or an urban area, generally it's communities that have been historically marginalized and they kinda put it on them like, oh, maybe they don't care that much about it when in fact it's like, it's actually work to do outreach to like build trust, right? Like it's, it, it takes real work and and you have to like be strategic about it.

Pamela Rosales (22:36):

Yeah. It takes real work and especially if you are not from that community you have to be okay with being uncomfortable and kind of owning up to the fact that hey, like, you know, your organization hasn't done enough work, but now you're trying and you're gonna have to kind of bite the bullet if people are gonna be hesitant cuz they have every right to be mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And we're so grateful to have DaVita because honestly I like to tell people that it doesn't matter how great of an ally you are, nothing replaces that lived experience and nothing can bring that connection that somebody who looks like them and has that lived experience. And I could, I could relate to that myself with the identities that I have. So we're super grateful to have DaVita here. and we wanna have been able to, you know, outreach to all of these tribes and have them, you know, be part of this grant if it wasn't for the awesome work that she has done.

Davida Delmar (23:30):

Thank you. <laugh>. Well, I would also say too that, you know tribes are excited about this and states and other folks who are partnering with tribes are excited about this. just keep in mind that, you know, tribes are sovereign entities, you know, so they're not necessarily stakeholders, they're rights holders, so they have a right in terms of how their land is managed. And a and a part of that, of course is the resources, which of one being broadband. But I also would would also say to these partners who are reaching out to tribes, I know there's, you know, a lot of, there's a lot of push, there's a lot of motivation to go speak to tribes and things like that. I always say do your homework first because it's not a tribe leader's job in terms of how to say, do you call yourself Native American, American Indian?

(24:15):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative> tribal nations are, or even what not to say, you know those different key terms or stereotypes that you hear or in, in that capacity. I just feel like a lot of folks who are in these leadership positions find themselves educating people on, on what it is to partner with their tribe or what it means to just meet Native American in general and not specific to their tribe even, you know. and so really figure out who, who is in your region, what basic things about it. And there's a lot of different resources out there in terms of like local universities, tribal colleges and things like that. Who have those resources, have tribal libraries who you can read about. I wanna shout out the Native Nations Institute. They have a seminar, a three hour seminar that you can call them out for because they it's called the Native Know-How, how to Partner with Tribal Nations. And that has existed for, you know, three years prior. And I think now states can take advantage of resources like that. It's already there. It's already built, it's ready to go. You can have it tomorrow, you know before they start, you know, reaching out to tribes and having these awkward conversations. And maybe I'm not giving them enough credit cuz I know some folks in states have already created those partnerships. Yeah. We still see it. It's still, you know, yeah,

Christopher Mitchell (25:36):

There's still a lot of people that engage in this like box checking where they, they don't, they have to do a consultation and they don't really do it. They don't take it seriously either. I think we all hear those stories.

Davida Delmar (25:46):

Yeah. And I think I've heard some of that in the summit today. Like people are just following the dollars, you know, and of course that's where it is in tribes. but to have meaningful, ongoing sustainable robust relationships with tribes I think is very important for people to do their homework first and just do the basic groundwork. and that's even go going beyond that, you know, figuring out what the demographics of that community is, you know, what's the age range? Education, computer usage, even, you know, that that data is out there and available. or what's connectivity like too? it's not enough to be like I have the best service, or something like that. Actually going to these tribes and asking 'em, do you think we have the best service? And they'll tell you straight out, yes, no, maybe whatever it might be. Mm-hmm.

Pamela Rosales (26:32):

<affirmative> with this with outreach, having that cultural competency primarily the understanding of racial equity and especially if you're not from that specific community and you have to be aware that race does play into interactions and that it's okay to feel uncomfortable as long as you are willing to push through that uncomfortability so that you can see that end goal, that that community is going to get that digital equity that they deserve. And so for example two really awesome organizations, community Tech Network and SF Tech Council they do digital literacy trainings and they specifically have digital skills trainings that target the population there, which are older Asian population. So folks that are speaking Tagalog Vietnamese and Mandarin I believe as well. And they did a great job of learning about that demographic and making sure that those trainings are culturally competent so that these elders can go and attend these classes, feel welcomed and graduate into their program.

(27:45):

And it, it's, I I love using them as an example because they really took the time to connect with the community where folks felt comfortable to continue attending those classes. I'm sure there are a lot of organizations right now where they, they're kind of in a stance of how, what, what do we do? We wanna help. Just being aware that it, it might be uncomfortable, but it's going to be worth it in the end. and also I'm always about, you know, investing in hiring a staff of color or a staff that reflects those lived experiences of those community members, but also with the caveat of we can't rely on them for every information about that community. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that can't be it. That, just like you said, like you can't be the checkbox where, okay, we, we hired the person and now we're going to burden them with all of these unnecessary questions like DeVito was talking about, of what's the right thing to say, what's not. You can Google that and make sure that you, when you're interacting with that person, that they're doing what isn't their job description.

Christopher Mitchell (28:45):

Excellent. So I think that's it's a, it's a really good healthy update of what's happening in digital equity and what organizations and people should be thinking about as they're, they're moving forward with this. So thank you both.

Davida Delmar (28:57):

<laugh>, thank you for having us. This was really great. Great to connect. I, I don't know, I just love your support for different things and spearheading like the tribal broadband bootcamp, that's, that was like a huge resource for me when I first got started, so

Christopher Mitchell (29:10):

Thank you. Yeah. You're a fusion spicer now.

Davida Delmar (29:11):

Yeah, exactly. If people don't know out there, I'm a great fiber splicer

Christopher Mitchell (29:16):

<laugh>. Thank you. We

Ry (29:17):

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